CNX Podcast
The Chiang Mai Community Podcast, where businesses, brands and interesting people get heard. Hosted by Ash Pemberton.
CNX Podcast
The Path to Self-Discovery: Embracing Your Enneagram Type with Janna Hanover S01/E12
Step into the intriguing world of personality exploration with Ash as he uncovers the mysteries of the Enneagram alongside certified trainer Janna Hanover on CNX Podcast. Get ready to dive deep into the core of what motivates us as Janna unveils the transformative power of understanding your Enneagram type.
In this episode, Ash and Janna embark on a journey of self-discovery, navigating through the nine distinct Enneagram paths that illuminate the pathways to self-awareness, compassion, and connection. Join us for an insightful conversation that challenges you to explore what lies beneath the surface of your actions and interactions.
Don't miss this engaging exploration of the Enneagram's potential to transform lives. Tune in as Ash and Janna reveal the secrets of self-awareness and the art of leading more fulfilling lives.
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Okay hello. Welcome to CNX Pod. It's the one and only, it's Jana Hanover. Hello,
Janna:Hello. I'm so excited to be here.
Ash:for coming in. you're actually my first podcast guest that I've actually never met before. We've never met before, have
Janna:never
Ash:No, so the power of the pod is coming good already. Yay. The whole idea about this really was to extend my connection, share my contacts, and just be creative, meet people, talk to people, and find out where it can lead to.
Janna:and it's working because we both lived here for 10 years and somehow we've never met each
Ash:You are the founder of Holistic Enneagram.
Janna:Yes.
Ash:Congratulations. You're a certified trainer of the Narrative Enneagram. Wow for everyone listening, we need to ask you questions about what the hell that is.
Janna:Simply put, the Enneagram is a personality system. Myers Briggs, DISC, StrengthFinders, people have heard of those.
Ash:of all three?
Janna:Enneagram falls right in line with them. No difference. Big difference when you start to dig into them is that the three that I just mentioned, they kind of look at strengths and weaknesses. The Enneagram digs into motivation and what drives you.
Ash:I like this.
Janna:that's why I chose to certify in it. Cause there's so much work you can do when you know what pushes and drives you and what you shy away from, right?
Ash:I contract for a big management consultancy. I've been working with them for about 18 years, and they put everyone through the Myers Briggs test. And I was just fascinated to see my result. I got my four letter code. I wanted to know who I was like, and I wanted to know more about that. Is that the type of service that you
Janna:you look at like Myers Briggs stuff, I always say it kind of puts you in a box. that you stick yourself in. You're like, Oh, this is really interesting. And I have these and these, but there's not a lot of play you can do with it. There's not a lot of places you can go. The Enneagram, because it looks at what drives you, what's underneath all of that, which I think we'll dig into a little bit today. I use it with, for example, companies because when they want to bring a new person on board when their team, they want it to be more efficient or more effective, or they're not working together well, or there's conflict, all that, I can pull that in and start saying, okay, let's look at who's here, And then we can start playing with all the things you want to bring up. lot more depth, I would
Ash:Okay, How do you assess someone?
Janna:Good question. I do what's called a typing interview. that is where I sit down with you one on one for one hour and I ask a lot of questions. And then usually I have a follow up session. Some people will fall into a type right away and usually it takes a second hour keep playing around with the types that I'm thinking you fall in and ask questions, and kind of motivation. starts to rise to the top. What's driving this person?
Ash:How many types are there?
Janna:there are nine types on the Enneagram. We don't like to title them it's very strategic. There are titles because People got their hands on them, right? And they started saying Type 1 is a perfectionist, and Type 2 is a helper, right? But there's nine types. the Enneagram originally was always oral. It was mentor knew about the Enneagram and would work with you one on one about your type. You didn't learn the other eight types. You just learned about you and learned about how you can grow and change and all of this stuff.
Ash:What are the top line advantages of knowing which type you are?
Janna:better self awareness. first of all, in your relationships, So I always use Brene Brown. She says, courage, compassion, connection, courage to see yourself for who you really are. So you know what you're bringing to the world and what other people see. There's so much about us that everybody else knows that we either deny or we really actually don't see. compassion is the second one, because when you realize, Oh, the rest of my team out here. Doesn't think the same way I do. I'm like, let's start a podcast. And they're like, why? And you're like, cause it would be fun. So compassion. Now you see other people are different. Your family, how other people are different and that gives you better connection.
Ash:Yeah, I agree. I understand. It's happened to me.
Janna:Okay. Through a personality system or? in
Ash:Just in general, really. Just through, I talk about my daughter quite a bit on this one, but she says to me regularly, Dad, I'm not like you. I don't want to go out and hang out with 50 people. Do you understand? I'm quite happy to just be alone in my room for an hour. I'm like, come on, we got to do stuff. We got to meet stuff. We need a social busy diary. It took me a while to not. put my happiness on the actions and expectations of other people, particularly my family. I'm still learning that one.
Janna:I was thinking the other thing, Ash, was, so just listening and getting to know you a little bit, I'm assuming you're a visionary. Probably you like to brainstorm and think of new things and new ways to do things and innovate,
Ash:I do.
Janna:if you're falling in the certain type, I think you may be falling in. Then when we look at what motivates that, The motivation of that type is running from pain because of the fear of being stuck in it. So when you know that about yourself, it's whoa, what areas do I avoid? Relationships when I stopped doing all of the fun and the new adventures and the new places and the new people and all of that, I feel like I could get trapped. And so they run from limits and being trapped. okay, how is this affecting my relationships? In what ways is my wife and my daughter, connecting with me.
Ash:your assumptions are already quite correct, but I think I'm an open book anyway. I think I'm quite obvious to read that way, and I'm pretty straightforward that I do say what I'm thinking, and it's pretty easy that I do tell people what motivates me. So I did a podcast recently with Antoinette Jackson. Do we have this
Janna:No,
Ash:So she is a human design analyst. Are you familiar with human design, So I got quite a great reading from her that really helped me understand myself and start to piece that together. What I really received from Antoinette was just this ability to not be so hard on myself. And when you said compassion, I thought you were going to say to be a bit more compassionate with yourself. But what I was really hoping we could do was and talk about some different types So that the listeners can hear something for themselves And maybe you could just give them a little bit of flavor about who they are and what they can do or what they could be aware of that would help them I know that's a big question because you've told me there's nine
Janna:nine, but we can do them really briefly. You don't have to, yeah. we'll just do ones through nine. So our type one, called the perfectionist or the reformers. type ones are driven by doing what is right in every situation. They have high integrity and high morals, and they want to come in presenting What it is that they have that they know is right to do right and wrong, black and white kind of dualistic thinkers. there are people on your team. So I like to talk about it business wise. You can hand a project to you and It's going to be done well. You can trust that they are high on duty, high on responsibility. The trick with them is, and everybody has growth points, right? But with type ones, it's, they'll push that farther than the people. So right and wrong will come first, when they see someone doing something out in the world that is not right in their mind, that kind of really grates on them. When they see a system that's not right, when they see, let's take bribery, that's a big one, but, so that's for the type ones. Type twos, we call them the giver or the helper. It's very important for them to, be needed is to be wanted. To be wanted is to be loved. And so it should be the opposite. We should just love people for who they are, but for type twos, they feel they have to give in order to receive love back. So these people are super friendly and easy to be around. They're very empathetic. They can read emotion. You feel very connected with these people instantly. And just very warm, compassionate kind of people who you're always feeling like, this is so great. You're just always so helpful in air quotes. but type twos when push comes to shove, so each type their growth point, right? When push comes to shove with twos, it's if, when I give, I'm expecting to get, they don't know that it's subconscious, I'm giving in order that you'll give me love in return. Type threes are called our achievers. are driven to get love by doing. So they do a lot. They are your typical workaholic, type A, type twos, we say they know everyone's story on the team. type threes, they're the ones who are like, we're just getting it done. They're working 10, 15, 20 hour days. They're knocking off tasks. They're knocking off projects. And for them, the drive is, in order to be loved, I have to do. Type fours, these are our romantics. the type fours drive is they feel that there's something they are missing that everyone else seems to have. They feel inherently flawed. And so their drive to get love is to be unique or special. On a team, this is going to look creative. They are out of the box thinkers. deeply emotional, very connected to their emotions. So when we say emotional in the Enneagram world, we don't mean like chaotically emotional. It means deeply connected to their emotions. They know them, they sense them, they can name them. But they like being different. So that creativity and that uniqueness on your team is super fun. Type fives, these are observers or investigators. deep thinkers. Type fives believe that the world demands too much and they don't have enough to be able to meet that demand. And so what they do is they, we call it hoard again in air quotes, where they hoard information and knowledge in order to protect themselves from a world that they feel is too demanding. They know a lot. They're knowledgeable. They tend to be very reserved. They tend to withdraw a lot. They spend a lot of time reading, learning, growing in the intellectual sense. So on a team, type fives are going to be kind of reserved. They want their projects handed to them. They don't want to be micromanaged. Makes them a little, anxious. and they might have a hard time completing projects because they love to dig. Cause they're adding it, but there's so much more I could learn about it. There's so much more I can add. Type sixes there are loyalists or skeptics. driven by the fact that they feel that the world is a place of uncertainty, unpredictability, it's unsafe. And so they spend their time kind of making sure that they're checking all the boxes. Thinking about worst case scenarios, problem solving, thinking ahead to make sure that they have taken care of all of the pieces that could go wrong. So often that doesn't happen for type 6s, but that's how they run. Type 6s on your team, they're super loyal. These are the ones who go down with the sinking ship. When they're in for good. They're dutiful, they're responsible. They love team thinking and group collaboration. Very supportive. Sevens, we call them our enthusiasts or our optimists. Sevens love fun. This is their word. Sevens are driven to avoid emotional pain. the way they do that is they always do new. They're innovators, they're out of the box thinkers, they're creative. They're the ones who take a whole bunch of information and piece it together and give you this thing that nobody else has thought of. they do that all to keep running from what could be pain if they ever slowed down and looked at something. Super fun to be around, creative on your team. We've got these dot connectors, these bridge builders, right? Not super great with details because they love the big stuff, the big brainstorming. Type eights, these are our bosses or our leaders. That's their title. so when you think of a boss, this is your eight. They are motivated to protect themselves from vulnerability. So for an 8, vulnerability equals weakness. at all costs, they will not be weak. They are strong. They are powerful. They make decisions. They move ahead. They're go getters. Very similar to 7th. And so on a team they're pretty easy to spot. They don't have to be the leader, but if they see a lack of leadership, the 8s will naturally step in. And then our 9s they are our conflict avoiders. So type 9s, our peacemaker or mediator is our title for them. And 9s are motivated to avoid conflict at all costs. They are easygoing, easy to be around, very peaceful, people feel very calm around nines. I've heard that a lot from clients, like I can just sit with a nine and it's just very calming. And so they're always navigating the world to make sure they're avoiding conflict. they're bringing peace to every situation. Harmony is a big word for nines. But it's because of that conflict avoidance piece.
Ash:Wow. That was great. And as you were talking I was like, no, I'm not anything. And then you hit seven, eight, nine. And I thought maybe I'm a little bit of seven, eight, and nine. So does it work like that? Do people, Combine. Are they clearly one or do you say, Oh, you're a combination of.
Janna:when we look at Enneagram stuff, it's what drives you, what motivates you. So you can only be one type, because you can't be motivated by conflict avoidance while you're being motivated by pain avoidance. For example, you're either going to do one or the other. That's going to drive everything underneath you. At
Ash:the same time. or at all,
Janna:everyone hates conflict except type eight, they don't mind it. I wouldn't say they like it. That's a wrong assumption, but they feel that conflict leads to clear communication, so don't mind it. They're willing to engage.
Ash:Because it helps them get what motivates
Janna:exactly.
Ash:Yeah. Okay. I'm starting to get it. Yeah, I'm starting to understand it. What we've just described there is the narrative Enneagram.
Janna:the Enneagram itself.
Ash:and you're a certified trainer of the narrative Enneagram, so does that mean?
Janna:It means I can teach and I can type.
Ash:you can type and by that you don't mean like punching on a keyboard, you mean categorize people into their types. I got you. And then when you said it's all verbal. Does that mean that you don't write any of this down?
Janna:So originally the Enneagram was all Oral, But now there's books and all of that stuff. So when I work with clients, you get notes from me because people learn differently, right?
Ash:so now let's put this into context with your company. You are the founder of the Holistic Enneagram. So you've added the holistic, what? You see something bigger than this?
Janna:A lot of times when I feel like people they certify in something it's, like their world. I'm like, this is a piece. That's why I said I love the Myers Briggs disc strength finders. And I think those are good pieces also. And this is another piece that helps you learn about you, right? So it's a piece of it. I want to take the Enneagram and work it. to help you be more holistic, to help you be more well rounded.
Ash:Yeah. Okay. So let's say you've now help me identify what motivates me, what potentially I'm escaping from and what motivates me to do the things that I do. What do I do with that?
Janna:Work with me.
Ash:Okay. Well, how, how, give me a flavor of what that might be like. So
Janna:we look into. Where do you fall? And then you feel like, okay, this is where I land on the Enneagram, right? And we always talk about, you're not, let's take, for example, let's just take a type seven for you. Okay. So Ash, you are not a type seven. you use type seven tendencies to navigate your way in the world. So what I do is I'm going to bring those things to light so that you can start seeing. These different ways that you're stuck, this is my tagline is growing outside the box, because you're stuck in a way of using 7 that eventually stops working for you as life goes on and you start to get older. These things don't work as well anymore. And then you're having to start finding different things to cope or to feed whatever it is that you're trying to feed. So my job is to bring stuff and say, Hey, We don't need to let type seven run you any longer. Let's look at how that's been doing that, how your personality has been playing itself out and start to learn, I really don't have a choice when I'm being driven by personality. I'm just responding the same way over and over again to the same situations. there's certain types of people that probably push your buttons, or there's certain scenarios that happen. Or you come into the office and you're like, when this happens it drives me crazy. And I've said it before, right? Like those things is my job to say why? Why does that drive you crazy? Why is it this type of person that drives you crazy? Why is it this type of person you're always attracted to? are these scenarios happening over and over again? Let's see the ways that kind of your personality is playing itself out, helping you make your way in the world, which it originally did, helps you make your way, but eventually you want to put your personality aside and be you, not use the same coping mechanisms and patterns and tendencies over and over again to keep trying to make your way in the world.
Ash:I get that. Thank you. Explain that really well. So now I get why I would want to know more about it. And I get why it would be beneficial for me to change or to adopt new ways of dealing with. situations, opportunities pressure? Let's clarify that for people. What are the benefits of being like a way more rounded person and having this? what's the change that could happen to me?
Janna:Let's take a relationtip You know how you have a partner who keeps talking about this thing that drives them crazy that you do, and you think either two things, right? That's just who I am. So deal with it, right? Which is a big one. Or It's you. That's another one that we deal with. So I feel like when you bring in the Enneagram to that picture, you are starting to be like, okay, I can actually be entering into this relationship, seeing who I actually am and recognizing that and the ways that my subconscious is playing itself out, that's driving this person insane. And then I can bring change to the picture. instead of this thing that either we wind up splitting up because it just grows and grows and we can't deal with it anymore. So now I go on to find somebody new or we just grow apart because we can't deal with this thing. And I keep telling him, I don't even, one, I don't see it or two, it's just me. And so when you bring the Enneagram to the picture, all of a sudden you've got a way to use the word,
Ash:use, I'm
Janna:And a way to use words, a way to say, this is you, I'm understanding, this is me. You're playing into some patterns that you have that I know you're going to work on and change. I'm going to work on and change things. It brings communication. It brings words. So I have a story. nine years ago is when the Enneagram entered my world. Because my husband was saying these things to me. You are so fill in the blank, not self aware, you are this, you're, and I'm thinking you're just crazy. I don't see those things about myself. I don't see what you're saying. I think it's you. And he's it's definitely not me, And so we started growing apart because He's saying, I see all this stuff, and I'm like, I don't see any of that stuff. So I think you're either making it up, or it's you. And this is, I think, where couples naturally go, right? It's this kind of you have issues, you're starting to rub me wrong, and it's driving me Enneagram enters my world through a person. And I read this book called The Road Back to You. It's a great Enneagram introduction. I read my type and I was like, oh my gosh. And guess what? All that stuff that he was talking about, it explained it in a way that made me understand yes, I see this, but him just saying you're just not self aware. I'm like, what do I do with that? That leads me nowhere. But then when I start learning motivation and drive and why I might not be self aware, why don't I let things ride? Oh. And so all of a sudden I have vocabulary to come back to my husband and start talking to him. And he starts having vocabulary talk about himself and naturally communication happens, relationships get healed. I mean, I see it over and over and over again.
Ash:Like some top headlines of what you can do. Save relationships, enhance relationships.
Janna:Talk to me about businesses
Ash:you said I like to give a businessy example and you talked about my team and my office Are the nine types evenly spread?
Janna:I worked with a business once. So we have different categories. The types will fall into different categories. For example, four, five, nine, they all have similar characteristics. So I walk into this business once and they had a lot of four, five, and nines. What that means is we have three types on their team. It was like 85 percent of their team fell into what we call the withdrawing stance. This four fives and nines, they have a hard time getting motivated and getting things done. And then I have this type eight boss who's This go getter and leader, and he's no wonder I can't seem to get my team to do it, right? It's not that they don't want to. It's not that they're lazy. It's not that they're dragging their feet. It's a common characteristic of these three types, and he had a lot of them on his team. He brings me in, he learns, oh, this is what's going on, right? So suddenly it's not you guys drive me insane. It's Okay, what do we do now? Now how can we move forward knowing that a lot of my team has a hard time checking off boxes, getting motivated, getting things done. And you have somewhere to go with that.
Ash:HR or recruitment professionals?
Janna:When a company wants to bring in somebody new, they will call me. I'll come in and I'll say, Who are, what are you looking for in this position? What's your ideal candidate? And then when I do a typing interview with a person, I'll have those things in the back of my mind. So then I can turn and say, Okay, this is what I learned about the person that you're looking at. I'm seeing these things. I'm not seeing these things. These are some things you might want to be aware of. These are some things that are giftings and strengths, so they can say, okay, we want to move forward to the next part with this person, or, eh, okay, this person's not a good fit for this role.
Ash:And what's the split between personal relationships and business?
Janna:I do a lot of personal relationship stuff. Cause when people hear this stuff, they're like, Ooh, that makes me so excited. Like I want to grow or I want to grow my relationship. And so people get in touch with me and I love, working with everyone. Yeah. But I lean a lot more toward the business arena, helping businesses, either whether it's in the onboarding process with hiring or their team, or they just want to do sometimes businesses just want to do team building stuff, and that's fun. Let's get us all together. We all learn a little bit more about ourselves because they come out on the other side. We're going to work together a little bit better because we understand each other, right? A little bit more. Yep.
Ash:might look like for, someone like me, for instance, I've got a business, I've got a team of 10 we're a pretty tight team. They're tighter without me, like they're really tight when I'm out, we've also worked through COVID where they had to be tight. They had to communicate, they had to run it remotely. Yeah. How would that look for a boss that wants to build a better team dynamic? what would the program be?
Janna:Your team would be so fun. Let's just start off there because they know each other so well, right? The process would be, I would do a typing interview with each of them. 10 of them, one of you. And then I would bring that to the table and we'd do a team building session. So that's anywhere from two hours to a full day.
Ash:Okay. Team building session. Too vague. What does that
Janna:Yep. So what I would do is I'm going to bring it in and I'm going to say, okay, here's what you're looking at on your team. And we're not just going to look at individuals. I'm going to put you in different categories. like that four, five, and nine, that's what I did with that team. Okay. I'm going to move everyone around, right? Okay. I want these groups over here, these, and I want you to see what you're looking at. This group over here in general, here's what you're going to be looking. Now let's see how many people you have in these groups. Now let's see what you were. And then I move people around again, because you can start to see different characteristics. So we do some fun stuff. And then we do some talking stuff, allowing people just to build bridges, make connections where they're starting to say okay, I see why I gravitate toward this person when I want to do this certain project, and I avoid this person, or I avoid this person at all times, right? Or, why our team always seems to be the eight of us and two of them seem to be on the side a lot, right? Stuff like that. I try to help people put the puzzle pieces together. see the team more clearly, to be able to come back into the office and say, I see how we all play out. I see what we're good at. I see how we play out well in our roles. Maybe sometimes even bosses learn, Hey, I need to move some people around in roles. Because they're not quite in the right role. I'll do that with companies too. This person doesn't seem to be fitting here well. Why is that? When you learn what they're motivated by, when you learn what they're shying away from, you can start to say, oh, they don't fit in the boss role, they might need a different role, right?
Ash:Do you have scenarios where you think, there's actually someone missing from this team? I understand that you're motivated differently now, I understand your motivations, but there's still gaps. Does that happen often? people get hired and fired on the basis of
Janna:Be like, and we're done with you, like you're a seven and you're out,
Ash:then they might say now I've realized I've got six sevens, six people that are all sevens, and this isn't the right dynamic for this
Janna:Okay, so I have a company that I'm currently working with that's saying, I feel like we have all people who are go with the flow, go with the status quo, and I want and 3s. How do I do that? in some ways what you're saying, yes, I have companies who are looking at their team and saying, this is what we're missing. How do I find that? And I'm like you do typing interviews with your candidates, let's pull in and see who is stepping in for this position and let's see if they're the right fit, But not firing.
Ash:No, I think what I meant by that, maybe was, maybe the boss just has an attraction to a certain type of person that they like to hire. They're hiring someone that's comfortable for them. it might not be the right decision. And again, I am talking about myself here
Janna:was wondering.
Ash:because I've hired someone before. And have another friend who's like a management expert and he said, Ash, you've got to stop hiring smiley people. He said, you're a smiley person. He said, you're very people orientated. You need someone that's task orientated. So if they're miserable and they've got a bit of a solemn face in that interview, Don't dismiss them. Actually, that's the type of person that you might need. little snippets like that I was really helpful for me
Janna:That is so good because you're naturally like, so I walked in the room and I met you and naturally drawn your energy. Obviously you love people, right? And it's easy to be around you and so does it make sense that when somebody walks in the interview and they're real straight faced, and you're like not getting good vibes off this person. Nope, right? And it might be the person you need. Just like he said. So that's really good.
Ash:There we go. You give me some really good insights. I think I've understood why I'd want to know more about the types of people that are in my organization. What benefits that could have, we're saving relationships. We're building better businesses. We're building better teams. Everyone's going to enjoy their life more. So I get that. So can you now tell me what's your best work? What's the work that you've applied this to and you've gone? Yeah, that's why I do this
Janna:my best work is when a client goes, Oh my gosh, I had no idea. That's some of my best work. Oh my gosh. That's why, fill in the blank. When a couple says, that's why you do that, where it brings not judgmentalism, but understanding. When a business who was going to fire this person, because She would not hand in her reports in pen, they were always in pencil, and the business was requiring pen, and they were going to fire her, and it turns out she's a type one who's can't, must get it right, needing to erase, and I'm like, nope, we just gave her an erasable pen, right? This was years ago. So when you bring understanding to someone like that who was like, perfect for the position, but just wouldn't fit in the box that they needed. Because she was driven by, has to do it right, I need to be able to erase because I make mistakes and it needs to look perfect when I handed it, right? When you bring understanding through couples, through yourself, through businesses, through teams,
Ash:That's cool. I love that. What would you like to do next? Because, I'm going to throw a bit of human design back at you now. So I'm a manifester and I'm an instigator. So tell me what you would dream to do next and maybe I could help you make that happen.
Janna:and more into the business sector. I want to see companies use the Enneagram to make their companies more effective and efficient. Here's the thing, Gen Z, Generation Z is coming into the world, coming into the workforce, wanting. Holistic. They want their business and their personal life to be one and the same. And we've got your 50 year old, 60 year old boss, who's not you, People way older than you,
Ash:stop bringing your
Janna:who
Ash:is
Janna:like, this is stupid. Stop bringing your emotions into the workplace. Work is work, home is home, they're very separated. You're dead. We've got a different generation coming up. We've got people who are misunderstanding each other. Basically, what I want to do is I want to reach Asia, The lack of resources and access that they have here when I look at Thai companies and Korean and China and Japan Singapore Malaysia and Indonesia where they're still functioning on kind of an older system of not Understanding They're co workers, they're employees, they're bosses. That's my dream is like, Hey, you got a company and it's not working or it's not working as efficiently or you've got all of these Gen Z's that you're like, oh my gosh, Grow up kind of feeling, when I talk to these older bosses that I want to bring understanding. I want to bring More, compassion of the workplace, but more than that. Because when companies look at stuff, they look at the bottom line. It's if we bring you in, are we going to make more money? If your employees stay, guess what? You don't have to bring new people in and you don't have to train. You don't have to onboard and you don't have to off board and you save a ton of money, so I've always said turnover rates. Like I'm like, I can help with your turnover rates. So that's my dream. That's my dream.
Ash:Awesome. How do you sell this? How do you cost it? Do people normally have a referral and come to you and go I've heard you've done great work. Now, please, can you help me? Because it's, is it quite, do you have to put the value on it when you're selling to people? do you have to justify the cost of the program?
Janna:I never do because I've learned not to sell people into this. If you decided that you want it, if you're going to come in and dabble because you're like well, I heard about it. It could be cool, but I'm not really convinced. I say, okay, take a little bit more time.
Ash:Is it a fixed price
Janna:It is.
Ash:It is. But the programs obviously they differ. So some people might have a short program. Some people might have an
Janna:right, exactly. So I have different companies and different processes. So a company comes to me and I put together a proposal. And so here's three packages you can choose depending on what your company's needs are.
Ash:cool. There are
Janna:three set packages. I have lots of packages. Because it's really custom. If I come into your team, for example, Ash, I It's going to be custom designed. You have a very unique situation here of 10 people who might have worked together for a long time, who know each other really well. They have nothing to do with this new company that I'm currently working with. Who's basically been together for a year. Totally different. And you guys need totally different things.
Ash:might be a little bit complicated is that I actually have nine people doing the same role, Maybe that happens in all teams. and after about employee number four, I let the team take over hiring. We have this policy where. starters will come, they'll work for a week and then at the end of the week, they'll decide with my team, are you the fit for the company? And actually I take their word on that. so it goes from like a one day to a week trial to a three month trial and then at that point they will get a full time employment contract. And we've had a lot of success employing that way.
Janna:You've got so many different people putting their eyeballs on it, right? That's awesome.
Ash:but that doesn't necessarily mean that we've got the most effective hiring policy, or that actually we know what we're doing. We've just done it, I think, based on feeling. And maybe a bit on personality type. I like you, so you fit. But that's not necessarily the best way to hire a team, is
Janna:I'm getting a good vibe off of your team. So I think you guys are doing a pretty good job, you guys are picking out people that you quote unquote but that means that people are going to get along. People are going to want to stay. They're going to want to work here. Do you have a low turnover rate?
Ash:very low.
Janna:There you are.
Ash:we've had the same team, some of them 9, 10 years, and we've had the same client for 18 years. Yeah, it's pretty rare. Yeah, pretty scary though, because, it's all eggs in one basket. But it's worked so far.
Janna:No, I think you guys, the way that you're Bringing it in, when companies get bigger and they can't do that. You have a small team, you can have someone come in and work with you, they're getting a feel for the person and that person's getting a feel for your team at the same time. Like I love that trial period. But when we're looking at companies that have 150 people and they're bringing someone on, it's got to be quick, right? Tell me is this person gonna fit or not right away and then we'll keep going maybe with the trial period. But we want to know right away, Is this person a good fit for this role? This is what we're looking for. Will they fit, yes or no
Ash:So I'm going to put you on the spot here, you don't have to answer, you can just look at me and go, you didn't, you weren't meant to ask me that, or I don't want to answer that, you know, I want you to you to come into my family, and I want you to type us, and I want you to help us understand each other. Boom. How much?
Janna:I go for, so for that situation, I go by hour. So I charge 5, 000 baht an hour. To work with someone.
Ash:typically, how many hours would it take to help a family?
Janna:Totally depends on what you're looking for. Some people, they want to know something fast. They want four sessions. They check in, they check out. Most of my clients are long term, so they might work with me six months or a year.
Ash:you're cutting the divorce rate.
Janna:I'm a divorce raid. I'm cutting your turnover rate. You name it. saving you a ton of
Ash:So a family that would work with you ongoing for six months to a year, what's the frequency? How often would you meet them?
Janna:most of my clients like to do every other week and that's my go to sometimes once a week, but it's keeping the momentum going. I have some people who like to work with me once a month. It's fine. It's up to you, but it slows the momentum down.
Ash:Could we call this family therapy?
Janna:when you get into therapy and counseling. You're heading in a direction of licensure and all of that schooling stuff. So I try to keep them separate, but it is the same thing, right?
Ash:And then let's talk about small business. So again, let's use my example. Boss. 10 employees. What's the cost to do a program?
Janna:some companies, I've been hired by a team to come in and do an hour.
Ash:Really
Janna:it's like, Well, there's that. I don't even know you people. So I am literally winging this. Like, well, I'll come in and you know exactly what you're getting. If you want me to be here for an hour, I can teach on the Enneagram and you guys can take it and do what you
Ash:Right, so you just give them an introduction
Janna:I can do. Yeah. There's a lot of typing tests online, And have a statistic, 85 percent of my clients who come in mistyped. Yeah, because they've typed themselves. And because you can't test for motivation in a test, it's looking at strengths and weaknesses. It's looking at behaviors, right? So people fall in one of three types usually, and then they come in and they're like, I'm a seven. And I work with them and I'm like, I don't see seven,
Ash:because those tests are available for free. it's what you do with that.
Janna:But in terms of pricing there, the packages are all customs. So if you've got 50, let's say people that you want typing interviews for, The cost goes down because this is a huge chunk, right? So instead of 5, 000 an hour,
Ash:right. I get you, but that's still 50 hours that you've got to spend with one hour per person. It always takes an hour. you type me in about three minutes.
Janna:I just said you might fall in that one.
Ash:Yeah, because I still think I'm not sure if I'm 7'8 or not. I need typing properly, it takes an
Janna:It takes an hour. We should have done that pre show. That would have been so fun.
Ash:Thank you for the big insight. Thank you for being so open with how much it costs. Because I'm always thinking that. how much is this going to cost me? How long does it take? What am I going to get out of it? Yeah. Yeah. so openly answering those questions. That's been awesome. I'm gonna finish with just a little short fire quiz. I've prepared a couple of questions, Please will you describe yourself in three words?
Janna:motivated, optimistic, go getter,
Ash:What type are you?
Janna:oh no, we're not playing that game,
Ash:Great. What's your favorite childhood memory?
Janna:An adventure park. Going to an adventure park with my dad would take us every summer and it was like roller coasters. Lots and lots of roller coasters.
Ash:Super. What's the best advice you've ever received?
Janna:the one be yourself because nobody else can is a good one for me and my personality.
Ash:a good one for what you because you can't be anybody else. if you are your true self, you're probably going to enjoy life a bit more and probably be more successful. And is that not what you're helping people do?
Janna:I can compare myself to others. And so when I don't, when I'm just me, there's no one to compare to because I'm just me.
Ash:Do you ever compare yourself to your previous you? Compare yourself to your past?
Janna:Yeah, the way my personality sees the world, I compare to everything. I compare myself to myself. I compare myself to everyone else. I compare myself to the past and even the future self, all the things I want to be. So just learning to be me and be present.
Ash:I had a temporary tattoo on my arm that said be present. It wore off after three weeks. still think about getting it again. it's a good reminder. What's the kindest thing you've done for someone recently?
Janna:I was thinking of, we just did this trip my family and I flew to Singapore and then we took the train all the way back to Chiang Mai. We like putting our kids in situations that are chaotic and that require them to think navigate the world, so we made them do the trip back, figure it out. How do we get home? Using only trains. in some ways, I was thinking about the people that we helped along the way, the people we gave up a seat for, the people we bought a lunch for, that kind of thing. I was thinking more, I wonder if it was that, giving my kids an opportunity to fail for us to wind up in. Indonesia, by accident, right? And navigate the world and learn that it's not a scary place, that they're capable, they're competent, that they can do it.
Ash:You're clearly a homeschooler. yeah, I'm clearly not. my wife and I still a bit too much,
Janna:the
Ash:I love the idea of what you've said. It also reminds me of Richard Branson's autobiography. It's like one of his very first memories. Yes. was his grandma just kicked him out of the car 20 miles from home and went, work your own way home. Just that sort of hard love is that? It's challenging and testing and allowing them to learn for themselves. What makes you sad?
Janna:It makes me sad when people feel like they are stuck and there's nothing else they can do. It makes me sad when people think they're incapable. when people think they have nothing to offer the world and they have nothing to bring. It makes me sad when my kids feel like at the end of the road. There's no options or there's no way to work around something or it's just how it has to be. I guess I think we're probably similar in this being innovators and creative thinkers and there's always. an option you can be a part of the solution.
Ash:Okay, final question. What makes you jump out of bed in the morning?
Janna:that's easy. People in my life. My kids wanting to do one more day, just a little bit better with them. Wanting to connect, wanting to have a relationship. My husband my clients And my dogs.
Ash:Cool. It feels to me like you are practicing what you preach because You've built your life around what you're teaching and you have what you wanted, right? So congratulations on that. It's been a real pleasure to meet you It's been really
Janna:fun being
Ash:Yeah, really enjoyable conversation and now I know everything I need to know
Janna:right. Thanks. Thank you.
